Comments on The Information Paradox: Why Believers are Ethically Bankrupt

JCE, UR a genius.Thos who atack u and call u "stup...

2009-01-23T19:23:00.000-06:00

JCE, UR a genius.
Thos who atack u and call u "stupid", should not be able to speak. Too bad. I always said, theris no justice in this world, so how can it be the work of "god"
a chicken can come up with a better plan. All "religious" books are not worth the paper they are printed on. I use them to wipe my "@$$" with. That is what they are worth. People who have more than hi school education, and still beleive in god, are fucking dead. They have what I call "butt-head syndrome". All they need to cure themselves. Is to take their heads out of their butts.
Every war, every human tragedy is rooted in religious beliefs. When will those MORONS, realize this. You don't need beliefs to do shit. You can't even bake 1 loaf of bread with ur stupid beliefs.
if their is a "god" it is the most dispicable slug in existance. It is idiotic, egotistic, psychopathic slug. This is UR 'god" morons.
Send me your bibles and your torah and your quran etc... I am running out of toilet paper.
I love you jenny.
X

"So many people confuse the word 'morality' with "...

2009-01-22T21:39:00.000-06:00

"So many people confuse the word 'morality' with "ethics" that it isn't even funny."

_____

It seems true that the words "morality" and "ethics" and even "values" are used differently depending on who you're talking with and that's fine for individual purposes. Nevertheless, it is true that, in general, when one speaks of "morality" or "ethics" one is speaking of essentially the same thing - a set of values. Those values may be individually held or they may be common to many and, in truth, each of us is, in fact, a combination of personally held values as well as values we hold in common with others. Of course, no set of values either personally held or held commonly are ever static. Values are necessarily contextual otherwise they are of no utility. Because context is ever-changing, so too are values.

I know that many wish to point to "ethics" as though it is a very specific set of values in contrast to others, and they wish to point to "morality" as though that is a very specific set of values in comparison with "ethics". It's the nature of language that it evolves through the ways people use it and that's fine and necessary. Nevertheless, whatever term you choose to use to refer to "a set of values" in general without reference to who holds the values and why they hold them, you are speaking of the synonyms "ethics" AND "morality" as they are used in philosophy as a field of study.

I must say, I disagree with the linguistic split of the terms "ethics" and "morality" away from their status as synonyms to having very different meanings because it muddies the ever-raging debate over values. It is precisely a lack of good understanding of what "ethics" and "morality" refer to - values - that causes these arguments. As I've said before, most living creatures - human and non-human - have values, i.e., whatever criteria is used to make choices in face of alternatives. This necessarily means many forms of life have an ethic of sorts with human beings having the most complex values and thus the most complex ethics on the planet.

As I've said before, it is literally impossible for any living creature to be "morally bankrupt". All life faces alternatives because life must do something to remain life otherwise it perishes. Rocks face no alternatives to remain rocks and thus have no need of values and no need of ethics. That a thing is living necessarily implies alternatives, values, choices, ethics. No human being has ever been morally or ethically bankrupt and none can or ever shall be.

Of course, certainly, human beings will continue to bicker over whose values are superior and whose are inferior without fully realizing that values are necessarily individually chosen. Your values can never be superior to my own in my life. My values can never be superior to your own values in your life. This speaks to the concepts of inalienable individual rights and liberty - the supreme american values, or so many say.

So many people confuse the word "morality" with "e...

2009-01-22T09:25:00.000-06:00

So many people confuse the word "morality" with "ethics" that it isn't even funny. Morality is an individual point of view on what is right and wrong - Ethics is a common set of laws that encompasses the moral beliefs of the majority of a set of people in a society. Just because an individual beleives it is morally unacceptable to have an abortion doesn't mean everyone does or even should feel that same way, nor is such a decision necessarily unethical.

And what is this BS about atheists not believing in free will? OF COURSE our so-called sense of "free will" is the result of chemicals forming a pattern of thought in our brains. A point I would like to make, though, is that, while we can verify that chemical interactions in our brains influence our thoughts, there is no scientific method or procedure to control or measure exactly how those chemicals react to form thoughts. In this sense, the only difference I can see between atheists and theists, is that athiests may believe this chemical reaction could one day be measured... theists believe it cannot ever be measured, because God created us that way, with free will.

The real problem with saying anyone is morally ban...

2009-01-22T06:17:00.000-06:00

The real problem with saying anyone is morally bankrupt is all morals are subjective. There is no absolute right or wrong; good and evil are merely points of perspective. The only standard of values that means anything is the rule of law, and only because we as a society have collectively given it power over generations.

catholics are asswipes. the bible doesnt do shit f...

2009-01-21T20:07:00.000-06:00

catholics are asswipes. the bible doesnt do shit for u, just gives u an excuse to hate everything and be hippocrites.

"To be so egomaniacal that you can assert that God...

2009-01-21T19:58:00.000-06:00

"To be so egomaniacal that you can assert that God does not exist begs the question, how do you know everything ? Since you assert God does not exist, you must know everything."
__________

The short but essential answer to your view is that, as a so-called "atheist", I can make no informed statements about the "god" you claim exists. What I can say in the affirmative is the claims of persons such as yourself are grossly lacking in accurate observation and consistently logical reasoning to support what you claim exists. It's an important point to say "theist claims of the existence of a god are insufficiently supported" rather than "there is no god". An "atheist" doesn't reject the theist "god", they reject theist arguments to support their claims.

I could tell you of my absolute faith that there are salt-sucking creatures with twelve legs, seven eyes, and the power of telepathy on the planet Neptune and challenge you to prove they do not exist without giving you sufficient argument for my faith. You cannot know anything more about these creatures than I tell you, and therefore you must examine whatever arguments I make to back up what I'm saying. You cannot reject belief in these creatures because you never had belief in them to start with. You can, however, reject my claims as unsupported and therefore useless to human knowledge until such time I present you with an argument that supports my claims.

This is all an "atheist" does - reject claims of a "god" because those who claim it offer incredibly deficient support for the claims. This isn't rejection of something they never believed to begin with - it is rejection of the claims of theists as unsupported by fact and reasoning.

This is an important distinction and one I hope you come to understand ... eventually.

Hi all,I'm beginning to think I've made a very big...

2009-01-21T15:46:00.000-06:00

Hi all,
I'm beginning to think I've made a very big mistake.

Why do people think they need some sort of otherwo...

2009-01-21T14:54:00.000-06:00

Why do people think they need some sort of otherworld influence to guide them in a moral direction. Do they want someone to kill them? No! Do they want to be robbed, cheated, enslaved, tortured or the like? No! All you have to do is treat people the way you would like to be treated and throw those ancient, out dated, instruction manuals you call holy books away.

I don't think that atheists have to do anything ...

2009-01-21T13:05:00.000-06:00

I don't think that atheists have to do anything with bankrupt, and I don't think that even religious people wouldn't have to do anything with it... all I want to say is that we have to be all responsible for our actions - and nothing more.

I love the people who post things to the effect of...

2009-01-21T12:11:00.000-06:00

I love the people who post things to the effect of "without the bible how will you know what is right and wrong?"...

Well, all I can say to that is that i don't need someone to tell me what's right and wrong. It's pretty simple really. I don't need the idea of a god or an afterlife to make my life complete. The idea that only those who follow religion can truly be good people is ridiculous.

What is my motivation to be a good neighbor? Do i need a reason? Is it better to be a good person because you fear judgement in the afterlife, or because it's just the right thing to do? To me the person who doesn't believe in afterlife, yet still makes the effort to be a good person gets the "moral" high ground, because they're doing good things for the sake of doing good things.

Religion is a fairy tale anyway. A good example is Roman and Greek mythology. In it's heyday, those religions were absolute. Today we look at them and think "how silly that they believed in all those fake gods". The only difference is that i look at the current religions today and think the same thing.

Regarding the Bible: Christianity is a message of ...

2009-01-21T11:35:00.000-06:00

Regarding the Bible: Christianity is a message of Love and Compassion, to be applied in every instance. This message is perfect, unassailable. That we as Christians do bad things is not a failing of Christianity, it's a failing of humans. Humans are imperfect. How severely misguided to assume followers of Christ will not fall or stumble. If you can ignore the mainstream rap that labels Christians as "religious freaks" or "zealots out to get you", you may realize that the vast majority of Christians are some of the most loving, compassionate, and tolerant people you will encounter.

Knowledge is not a right, and is not spoon-fed, it has to be attained.

I for one, like the bible.I find it burns quickly ...

2009-01-21T09:04:00.000-06:00

I for one, like the bible.

I find it burns quickly and makes excellent kindling.

The commenter I have quoted below has no free will...

2009-01-21T07:58:00.000-06:00

The commenter I have quoted below has no free will or original thought due to using something so time worn and childish:

"Anonymous said...
pwned"

It is time to retire that idiotic non wrod forever.

I am an atheist who forms my own thoughts, attitudes and determines my own actions based upon my own gut feelings rather than someone else's system of accepting fictional whatevers from any imaginary being.

You miss the point; it's a very poorly written art...

2009-01-21T06:59:00.000-06:00

You miss the point; it's a very poorly written article. Your first comment gets it right - how can material make decisions? You don't actually exist - as an entity - apart from a bunch of atoms working together for a short time.

Indeed... believers in the legitimacy of the state...

2009-01-21T06:22:00.000-06:00

Indeed... believers in the legitimacy of the state are morally bankrupt..

I have personally witnessed God. Your hatred of Go...

2009-01-21T05:48:00.000-06:00

I have personally witnessed God. Your hatred of God makes me think that he shorted you in some physical sense. To be so egomaniacal that you can assert that God does not exist begs the question, how do you know everything ? Since you assert God does not exist, you must know everything. Atheists tend to be pieces of shit and you just made the pile stinkier and bigger.

Who was it that said "atheism is as much a religio...

2009-01-21T04:34:00.000-06:00

Who was it that said "atheism is as much a religion as not collecting stamps is a hobby"? Religion, lol.

Wake up people, they have been misleading you all ...

2009-01-21T02:44:00.000-06:00

Wake up people, they have been misleading you all with religion for thousands of years. It is complete bullshit. Holy holy holy, all lies... If you want to believe just believe in yourself... You see what you want to see, it is like the game of the universe, how everything works. It is limitless... But do not believe someone or something is bigger then you, then you will always loose my friends. You are the god, like everybody else is. So lets work together as gods of this universe, as creators and creations...
Just skip the good bad dualism and make up your mind... Get peace in yourself then everything comes along.

A god like you

Its interesting that most of these things that I r...

2009-01-21T00:35:00.000-06:00

Its interesting that most of these things that I read are more fact twisting and down your throat raming that most total rightwing fundamentalist sites.
You guys are just another religion.
And an angry one at that....trying to force all who disagree with you out of society. That sounds more like dangerous extreemism than anything else.

Indeed... believers in the legitimacy of the state...

2009-01-21T00:07:00.000-06:00

Indeed... believers in the legitimacy of the state are morally bankrupt.

The one standard to which we are all accountable i...

2009-01-21T00:00:00.000-06:00

The one standard to which we are all accountable is that of nature. One may do as one wishes, however, nature establishes the consequences for all action or inaction.

You may possess whatever values you wish, however, you may not dictate the consequences of those values. That power is beyond your reach and always shall be. Your success as a form of life will always depend on how you respond or react to that which you can authentically control and that which you cannot.

"Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed." - Francis Bacon

This is not a very good argument. I'm an atheist....

2009-01-20T22:38:00.000-06:00

This is not a very good argument. I'm an atheist.
Both systems of determining right and wrong have some sort of accountability. But with atheism, it's easier to actually get away with infractions because of the lack of an all-knowing being.

'Seems to me that "good" morals/ethics all boil do...

2009-01-20T22:07:00.000-06:00

'Seems to me that "good" morals/ethics all boil down to the "Golden Rule," - do unto others as you would have done unto you. From the Christian bible, perhaps, but that doesn't make it wrong.'

Stop saying that the golden rule is a Christian belief.

"Do not to your neighbor what you would take ill from him." (Pittacus c. 640-568 BC)
"Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing." (Thales c. 624-546 BC)
"Do not do to others what would anger you if done to you by others." (Isocrates c. 436–338 BC)

All of these philosophers predate the Bible by hundreds of years. You're exact phrasing of the golden rule may be from the New Testament, but do not pretend that it was an original idea.

"It's simply ignorant to claim that ethics cannot ...

2009-01-20T20:41:00.000-06:00

"It's simply ignorant to claim that ethics cannot exist without a higher authority."

_____

This is true because, as "ethics" or "morality" are simply terms we use to describe a set of values, and whereas most living creatures have a set of values, i.e., some criteria for making one choice instead of another, then most living organisms have an ethic. We must acknowledge the fact that, of course, human beings are far more complex and dynamic in their behavior and can form values that most other species cannot and perhaps have no need of in any event. Still, although we are more complex in ethical behavior, we are not unique in the possession of values and therefore of ethics.

If I choose not to take a life, it is not because a deity instructed me not to, it is because I value that life for my own reasons which can be many and diverse. If I choose not to steal from another, it isn't because a "god" gave me a commandment not to, it's because I myself understand the cruelty having what belongs to me stolen and will not invite that sadness and pain on another. My empathy toward their life stops me from causing them injury that I myself do not wish to suffer.

One can choose rational values or one can choose irrational values. We choose which we will act on from moment to moment. What guides me personally is a good and proficient intellect and my ability to understand and feel what another life experiences as consequence to my actions and words. I choose rational passions and passionate reason. To make good decisions in my own life and to treat others with respect and an overall attitude of non-interference, I do not need the psychological crutch that is the imaginary parental figure most commonly referred to as "God".

"Most athiests I run into tell me that their "mora...

2009-01-20T20:36:00.000-06:00

"Most athiests I run into tell me that their "morality" is to do their best not to harm their neighbor. But this is the very base of Christian morality. They don't know it, but they are following Christ."

You can believe in the principles without believing in the man/spirit/whatever form he wants to be in.